0:00
Hello everyone and welcome to this Infopeople webinar sponsored today by the California State Library as part of the 2019 2020 metrics grant. Our topic today is eliminating finds a win-win for your library and community and our presenters are Beth Crist Youth and Family Services Consultants from the Colorado State library and Magda priests and independent State Library consultant based in California, and I am now happy to turn the webinar.
0:30
in our over to Beth and Meg Thank you. Thanks so much. We're really excited to bring this important topic to you. And I think we'll go ahead and get started. It's great. There's so much interest in this still this we love this graphic here on this the first slide from the Hillsborough County Public Library Cooperative in Florida who have eliminated finds. It's really bright and colorful way to promote that you've gone fine free.
1:03
We're actually going to start you right out with a video. This video is from the Enoch Pratt Free Library in Baltimore, which went fine free in June 2018. Obviously, I always ask my students to get a library card. That's their first home with the family.
1:25
And weeks went by where people were giving me excuses after excuses. And the number one excuse was that they couldn't get a library card because they had finds it could have books because they had fun.
1:40
I think the fines and things like that associated with overdue books can be seen as a barrier, especially if you have more than one kid and you know, you're taking out maybe 10 books that can really add up because sometimes people are embarrassed to tell you that they don't have money to pay a fine. I think it is pretty tough, especially when it's children and they can't check out the books that they had already grabbed.
2:08
So we're the Enoch Pratt Free Library freezing our name and it's part of our mission and it's everything that we do. I think it's a bold move on behalf of the Enoch Pratt Library System to make this decision. It's really making a statement that they're putting our young people in our communities. First I think is going to make a world of difference. I think it's going to take a pressure off. A lot of people's minds.
2:29
It opens doors by families knowing that they don't have to worry about the library being a place that has a bill so my hope is that Eliminating funds will bring people back and see the library's there is so much we can do now with this access. They can come here to do research. They can take the books home with them. They can bring them back. No fines. No excuse read.
2:58
Okay, great. We hope you enjoyed that video. I think it really nicely sets the stage for what we're going to be talking about for the next hour. Just just how much of an impact that overdue fines make and so as we get started here. I will go ahead and mention the deaf the definition we're going to use of fines and we're just going to say finds but we're really talking about overdue fines as opposed to fees for lost or damaged.
3:28
books and So as we go through we're just going to be saying fines and that will cover just the overdue fines that will be discussing today. So our work here at the Colorado State Library really began in 2011 when we were doing our spell program which stands for supporting parents in early literacy through libraries.
3:50
And this was we had to Grant's actually by this name funded by The Institute of Museum and Library services, and we were really researching best practices for Low-income parents to incorporate early literacy activities into their daily lives.
4:08
And for the first year of our grant we did research with these parents that are in low-income households, and we were asking them a bunch of questions in through surveys and focus groups including what are your barriers to using the library and during these focus groups and surveys we heard that fines and fees are a barrier for For them to use the library and during the focus group. Some of them told us really compelling stories around this some say they did go to the library with their family, but they didn't let their kids check out books because they might not be able to get back to the library to return the books in time or the books might get lost or damaged and they could not afford those fines or fees other parents said that yeah, they do let their kids check out books. They want them to they Leverage.
5:02
Their kids but as soon as they get home, they put the books up high on a shelf. So the kids can't touch them and even when they're reading with their kids, they don't let their kids touch the books because again, they're afraid they were going to get damaged and they couldn't rip Ford the replacement phase. So these are real stories and they were they were so compelling to us that we know we needed to delve into this further.
5:29
So we we did a Megan tell you more about when she started her research, but here's one quote from a teen Patron as well. So we chatted with Rio be age 18 currently about her situation. She uses the library often and has her entire life. She even is tended Story Time as a child. She participated in the summer reading program and all.
6:02
Enjoyed the teen programming and she's still learning kind of the ins and outs of being an adult and sometimes she falters and during her senior year when she was really busy including applying and getting accepted to college. Sometimes she neglected to turn in library materials on time and the resulting finds that accrued on her account have become a real problem as you can see in this quote. And also we heard more and more about the the shame.
6:32
I'm that can be associated with having some high overdue fines to and that becomes a barrier to using Library just in itself and also this quote to gets to the long-term effect of this relationship with the library and if it's affected, especially when you're young you might not want to use the library ever.
6:59
And here is a quote from a patron of the San Francisco Public Library San Francisco Public Library went fine free and September 2019. So just two months ago and this is another quote that is follows.
7:17
What what we've been hearing all along and the this pot this public library did extensive research when they were looking into going and going find free and they They have amazing Stories and statistics. And so this is one of them and again it gets to how how easy it is for people to get behind on their fines and then they can't pay it back and be able to use the library.
7:45
And these are some statistics that San Francisco found that there are a higher incident a blocked accounts in neighborhoods with lower incomes in San Francisco. And we know this is the case to and a lot of other communities like Seattle St.Paul Westminster Colorado and many others. They've all found similar incidents.
8:13
of these low-income neighborhoods being disproportionately affected by fines And so all of this leads up to the fact that finds prevent borrowing and that finds disproportionately affect lower-income.
8:34
Neighborhoods late fines can really create a significant barrier to using the library for some patrons as we've heard and of course those that need access to libraries and reading materials the most are often the ones that are affected they make these Trends May lack transportation to return the materials and sometimes they just can't afford paying fines and others simply don't check out books.
9:03
Because they're afraid they might not be able to get back on time. And again, we've already seen quote about being blocked from library Services causing great embarrassment and shame and some people will just stop using the library when they can't clear their accounts.
9:26
Hi everybody, I'm Meg. Well, I was working on the spell project.
9:30
I got the enviable task of diving into our professions research and Publications to discover what we know about fines how they work if they work and whether or not others hadn't covered this phenomenon of community members avoiding borrowing because of them that dive into the research resulted in the Colorado State libraries white paper released in 2016 advocating for elimination of fines and fees on children's materials In reviewing the literature, I found editorials and articles going back decades with many questioning the policy and some supporting it the age-old thought that a late fine, we'll teach people civic responsibility appears throughout our professional literature with folks debating whether or not that's actually the library's role to teach responsibility regardless of whether the fines work or not.
10:18
And of course throughout the years Advocates have been concerned about making the library accessible to members of our community who need us most As far as studies about the effectiveness of late fines, I was able to find very few studies in the research that tested the notion that charging late fines result in a better on time return rate for materials. The few I found were revealing in three surveys of North Carolina libraries conducted between 1983 and 1991 researchers compared circulation statistics of libraries with different overdue policies This research revealed no significant difference in the overdue.
10:56
Ooh rates of libraries that charged overdue fines and those that didn't another surprising fact charging nominal fines did not affect the late return of materials, but the existence of large fines did other researchers tested whether or not rewards such as gift cards would improve late return rates and they had no effect either and on the next slide since that white paper has published and shared Beth and I have continued to research and explore this topic in my case.
11:26
Rather obsessively sometimes when I learned that there are many libraries out there that have never charged late fines. I reached out to learn more from them.
11:34
I talked to the folks at Fairbanks North Star Borough Library in Alaska and they reported their replacement costs were similar to libraries in their community that do charge finds their Library functions smoothly without a policy on late fines and they were glad not to have to waste staff time collecting finds the Saginaw Chippewa tribal library and Michigan has Never charged late fines. What's neat about this library is it's in a shared system with some local public libraries that do charge fines and the director there was able to access the late return rate for her library and the other libraries that serve the community her libraries relate to return rate, which was 13% was identical to the other libraries in the community that charge finds she reported that their hold fulfillment rates were very similar as well.
12:26
Now in the next slide, I want to show share some information with you from libraries that have recently in the last few years change their policies and I want to emphasize a few Trends first. Nothing bad is happening at these libraries just a few examples here are Gleeson library in Massachusetts who reported no discernible difference in the time people were keeping their materials after the policy and Before High Plains Library District in Colorado reported 95% of their materials coming back.
12:54
In time after they changed the policy and there was no increase in Patron disappoints. That would be when someone is waiting for a book and it's not coming back on time Dayton Metro library reported fewer items returning late after the policy was implemented st. Paul recorded their circulation Rose for the first time in years, 42,000 people with blocked cards return to borrow items and two libraries in low-income areas of the city saw circulation increased by 13 and 15 percent.
13:23
Salt Lake reported 3.5% more borrowers and their circulation went up 16% after their policy change and San Rafael in Northern California reported an increase of 39 percent in youth borrowers when they dropped fines on children's materials. So what's happening to library budgets people worry that eliminating fines will remove a revenue stream overdue fines usually make up a very small amount of a library's budget typically less than 1% add to that the often overlooked.
13:54
Is required to collect those dimes and quarters and the actual revenue generated is often very small between staff time mailing overdue notices fees for processing credit card payments and collection agency fees. It turns out that much less revenue is collected than many believe you can see here High Plains and Colorado reported that collecting finds was revenue-neutral. They were spending as much as they were collecting Saint Paul made an interesting point stating that the overdue fines. They were collecting. We're decreasing steadily.
14:23
Yeah, especially with the addition of auto-renewal anyway, so it wasn't really a reliable or steady funding stream before they drop their finds. This is great. San Diego was spending a million dollars to collect 700,000 dollars in fines and then similarly on a smaller scale KC Carr diinya library in Australia found that their income from late fines was surpassed by the expense line item. Lastly. Something neat is happening when libraries drop fines.
14:54
Similar to find amnesty programs when you forgive and drop finds books. Come back this story about Chicago got a lot of press in the last few weeks it even popped up last weekend on wait. Wait, don't tell me on NPR. I got a text from Beth and Sunday in the first three weeks after they drop Fine Chicago had a 240 percent increase in book returns. So materials come back when people aren't worried and they don't feel ashamed and they feel welcomed pass that back to Beth now.
15:24
Yeah, and so this since this is such a movement, it's been really exciting to see so many libraries across not only the country but the world is for finding out going partially or totally find free. So Megan, I've been working with Andy Woodworth a librarian in New Jersey on this map and you can see the URL for the map at the top of the slide.
15:48
And by the way, these slides are available in your handout so you can always click on that and and Um have them later, but it's so exciting to see this map populate. It's really a movement. We have communities libraries and communities small and large from Yankton South Dakota to Baltimore, Maryland to Well County, Colorado and so many more that are going fine free and so here on our map. We are up to 390 Library systems worldwide that are totally fine.
16:23
350 that are partially find free and 22 that are in process and we should note here that this is not a comprehensive accounting for this at all. These are self-reported and also as we come upon news that they've gone find free will add them to the mat but we have not done any kind of comprehensive survey to know. So this is a vastly under counting all of the libraries that I've gone find free.
16:51
And so Some That You Don't See on the map or that the entire country of Ireland. All of their libraries are fine free and the Canadian province of Prince Edward Island, all of their libraries are fine free. So this really is a worldwide movement, which is very exciting.
17:16
Another thing to note is this includes libraries from all different types of governmental in structures. So it is Municipal systems Library districts County systems Etc. It encompasses a wide range of that.
17:38
And here just some great headlines that we've been following again. We Megan I do track these and it's just so exciting to see as they pop up in the news across the country. So here are some great ones.
17:59
And this was also great news an American Library Association in January 2019 passed a resolution on fines as a form of social inequity. And so this really embodies the research that we've conducted the findings that have been showing up as more and more libraries get rid of fine. So we're really excited to see this this move from a la.
18:28
It's really official policy that they have now.
18:37
and There are a lot of ways that you can Advocate at your library no matter what your position is. And so you can encourage your either your Administration or your governing body, whatever that may be to and overdue fines by requesting. First of all, you know, Gathering statistics is really critical some important ones here are the number of patrons blocked due to fines.
19:10
And if you can get the stats on differences in low-income neighborhoods on the number of patrons blocked that can be a very compelling. And also if you can drag the dollars brought in by finds versus how much it costs to collect the fines you can see here at the bottom of the page. This graphic is from the Waverly public library in Iowa.
19:34
They find that one percent of their annual budget comes from library fines, and we included that because that We found is about the average no matter what size Library it is. It is overdue fines account for approximately 1% of of an annual budget. So that is that is about the average definitely Gathering compelling stories.
19:57
Not only from your library users, but definitely get outside the library talk to people about how fines have affected them and then create talking points mag talked about the Server three main myths about fines which all turn out to be incorrect which are finds generate revenue for the library fines bring back materials faster and finds teach responsibility. And these are all turned out to be false.
20:27
So again, we have we have some Some tools for you later on that but first I'm going to turn it back to Meg. So for the past couple of years, it's become my daily ritual to check my Google Alerts and search Twitter for new announcements and read every local news article. I can about libraries who have dropped late fines and it's always obvious to me when Library leadership has done their homework and prepared their message as they announced the policy change local newspapers. Love to cover this subject.
21:02
And depending on the reporter the pieces can be very light and positive or they can be more critical over and over. I've read director statements covering. Just what Beth and I have reviewed today. They've got it home to a nice packet of information covering the fact that finds don't work. They cost money to collect and they harm the most vulnerable in our communities. There will be reporters and online common commenters who will ask about the whole teaching responsibility issue.
21:29
There will always be naysayers, but your job is to make your message positive compelling and convincing announcing this policy change will result in an immediate conversation with your community. So you need to be ready to answer those questions and I've added an example here because I think Fox River Valley libraries did a really Brave thing. They had a website where they laid out their facts and discuss wanting to make the library more accessible. They had charts and graphs showing the budgetary implications and at the end they included a two-question survey for community members.
22:02
The screenshot here the first question you can see that almost 80% supported them after reading through the information. I really encourage you to go and visit that site at some point and look at the individual responses paying attention to the ones who are still not convinced. It'll help you prepare your response to the members of your community who aren't convinced. So be prepared for that conversation do your homework and have your advocacy tools ready? And you should have some good success.
22:37
And speaking of advocacy tools. Here's a great example from the Saint Paul Public Library, which went fine free and summer 2018 and they have a treasure Trove of resources available on their website of all sorts of materials that they used when they were going find free and they have videos. They have compelling visuals like this. This this is a great infographic.
23:06
Back that really sums everything up really nicely and they have another page. There's a two page one and it it just includes National research their own background information local library stats and their impact stories in a really neat package. So we really encourage you to go. We have a list of resources at the end of this slide presentation and their on here.
23:36
But they have they have really besides this infographic. They have a lot of resources that may be helpful as you're going fine free. So we were so impressed with their infographic that we developed a template that you can use actually to templates that you can use for putting together a similar type of compact visual.
23:59
So this is one option here and these this slide and the next slide are both available as PowerPoint templates on your handouts. So if you are interested in downloading these and possibly using these in your own efforts to go find free, please do download them and and customize them. So here's one option here.
24:27
And then we just provided a second option. If you prefer these there are a little bit different statistics. So depending on on what statistics you've been able to gather.
24:42
Here and you can just fill in the blanks for your own Library.
24:48
So I hope those will be useful and the these are new we've just roll these out recently. So if you come up with any suggestions for them, or if they've worked or haven't worked or what you'd like to see in them to please contact us because we're we're definitely open for suggestions. And again, they are they are new. So we're still kind of in testing mode here.
25:14
And so what if it doesn't work what if you have major pitch and your governing body doesn't go for it. So definitely ask. Why what what what is it?
25:30
What you know, is this a fear is this, you know, A reluctance because you're afraid of the revenue decrease or you're afraid that materials won't come back in time or you're afraid the community will be against it. You know, what why is there this reluctance? You can also consider changing your ask? We know that some libraries have done a one-year pilot during which time they've really carefully tracked the statistics before the pilot and during the pilot to allay those fears.
26:06
That revenue is going to decrease or the materials won't come back in time. So once at the end of the year, they're able to say hey, we've had nothing but positive effects from this. We now propose doing this permanently. Another possibility is to go with just eliminating overdue fines on children's and maybe why a materials only and starting with that again.
26:36
In some libraries have been successful with that again track statistics before and during and say perhaps if everything is gone well with just this subset of your materials, then you can propose doing it system-wide for all of your materials.
26:56
So that is another option and one impetus there as you can say, well, you know often children, especially young children who I really have no control over returning their materials on time are the most can most negatively affected by overdue fines, since I cannot do this on their own. So that is one way to go. Definitely if you're unsuccessful in these other avenues haven't worked keep collecting the data on the stories.
27:30
And you can always try again next year you've planted the seed. So just definitely keep trying.
27:44
And we're up to the questions.
27:48
This great visual is from the Clyde public library in Ohio. So they're all kinds of ways to promote out that you've gone find free. This is great. So I see we have some questions here in our chat box and I can go ahead and handle Beth the one about the statistics. Someone is asked what's what are the statistics?
28:15
Okay, hang on I'm gonna go back up. Sorry there. It is. Any studies analyzing whether account block rates change in economically disadvantaged communities after fine finds free implementation or do unpaid lost or damaged charges result in the same social Equity. I'm going to be very interested to find that out. I feel like we're still in the phase where you know, this is a relatively new phenomenon that we've been following. I have not seen any studies yet that have started looking at what's happening, too.
28:45
Cards with lost or damaged charges my guess would be lost is going to go down significantly.
28:50
It's just a matter of you know, basically what happens is people Institute of policy that if you after a bunch of reminders, your account is blocked until you bring the material back, but there's no fine if you bring it back and so I think some books that used to be considered lost will come back because people are not afraid of the late fines, but I haven't seen He studies yet that have really gotten into the statistics of what's happening to people's accounts with damaged items or I think it's just a little early but you can certainly know that I will be watching for it. That's it's like a it's a policy that is fresh. And I know that many libraries are tracking this because they want to be able to justify this policy in the future.
29:39
Okay, I'll tackle the next question. But my please jump in it is how do you assess the cost of collecting overdue fines, which is an excellent question. So libraries that have gone find free of collected information like certainly staff time and some libraries will estimate that at 30 seconds the transaction per fine some libraries do one minute. So that's a huge cost another one.
30:08
Is collection agency fees and credit card charges or credit card fees for whenever someone pays for a fine using a credit card and mailing overdue notices. So those are all costs that add up against ever Revenue you're bringing in right? I also saw some libraries that actually kept track of the time that staff members had at the beginning and end of the day where they had to count the till or go through and account for the money and put it back in the safe.
30:38
'f they also kept track of the time that the director or somebody stood out on the curb waiting for the Brinks truck to come. So it's just really keeping track of you know, it's staff time and energy not just with the interaction with the patron but also behind the scenes with everything it goes on with money. So you just start really keeping track of that and I think what they do is, you know, take a month and see over a month how long all that took.
31:08
Let's see. What are the statistics are numbers of patrons who perpetually return items late knowing that they will not be fine. Even if it is only a few days late on a regular basis. I do not have any stats on that but I did watch an interesting presentation at some point in the last few months where you know, basically the majority of people will get the books back and make a concerted effort.
31:32
There is always going to be a small portion of the population, you know, whether low income or Not whether Urban or rural there are always going to be people who are late all the time and the consensus is kind of like it's the cost of doing business, but I don't know of any statistics that you're asking for specifically. Okay, so I'll take the next one. What's the ratio of libraries that have gone completely fine free to those that are partially fine free I get according to what we've collected on the map. And again, this is not comprehensive.
32:08
But rather self-reporting and what Meg and I have found it's currently worldwide. 
32:15
We have 390 Library systems that are totally fine free and a hundred and fifty that are partially fine free and I should also further Define partially fine free because while yes, many of them are find free for childrens and or why a items that also includes some libraries that are fine free on all But charge fines for Media or other more expensive equipment perhaps if they loan GoPro cameras or something like that. So partially fine free can be a range of things.
32:53
But so that's what we have so far 390 totally and a hundred and fifty partially Yeah.
33:03
So there's a question about being part of a Consortium. And so it says I'm part of a Consortium and one of the localities does not want to go find free at all. Not even for children's materials any suggestions on how one Library can go find free when part of a larger system.
33:19
I've witnessed discussions about that and it seems to me that the libraries that don't charge finds don't charge fines on their materials now occasionally, you're going to have an inner Library loan and or something a situation where a patron is borrowing something from another library and they go by the they let the patron know that the customer know that the library they're borrowing it from does charge fines. But again, I think it's going back to advocacy. You got to work on them pickle Consortium members who are interested together and work on them, but I think it's you know, it's a conversation. So we have a question about academic.
34:02
He's going fine for a which is excellent question. We do know of some academic libraries and also K12 school libraries that have gone fine free. We are not really tracking those as carefully but really all of these issues apply and some of mags research has been from academic libraries. So Meg doing uh, speak more to that. I'm sorry. I was reading questions.
34:27
Can you ask me the question the question is do you know if academic libraries are I'm free. Yeah, I think and you know, what's great again, like Beth said I did hear this part we 10. She might have been focusing largely on public libraries. What I like about academic libraries is their academics so they tend to track it they tend to research it and if you dive into the databases go to Lista and start looking at our professional research, you will actually find more like hard studies where they're really keeping track among academic libraries, and I'm talking about universities colleges.
35:02
I can tell you that in capturing submissions for the the map that best told you I've seen a lot of K through 12 coming through and you know, it's a library by library and Community by Community particularly in colleges people are interested in getting students into the library and they are really working on dropping fines as being part of you know, welcome that well put welcoming them physically into the building. So it definitely lots of good stuff.
35:33
And I will add that you know that the issues of equity are the same and academic and school libraries as they are in public libraries. So we're all for it. Yep. Okay with it. Just keep coming in. Yeah, how can we figure out exactly how to do before and after stat keeping? Is there a model or lists?
35:59
I suggest you reach out directly to the Libraries kind of like what we have featured and talk to him. What's nice. Is there a libraries like Beth said giant system small independent libraries find a library on that map that is similar to your library and call them email them talk to them and find out how they're doing it. They're going to be the experts on what works.
36:25
But definitely reach out and you guys know this Librarians love to share so reach out to your colleagues in other libraries and ask them how they're doing it.
36:36
How do we guide our libraries to seek replacements for this relatively small loss in Revenue. That's a great question and one we hear all the time and the answer really is there is no loss of Revenue. Hmm. It is a perceived loss of Revenue. But really again when you add up the costs of Staff time of credit card fees collection agency fees and mailing out overdue notices the libraries that have gone find free have found that those add up.
37:04
Least yep. So the cost that amount that they're bringing in from finds right? I've seen Library. Sorry, that's some time. I've seen libraries also reach out to their friends groups and said, hey look last year. We collected fifteen thousand dollars in fines. We want to drop this and the friends group of said will step up and cover that, you know, whether it's needed or not. Basically, it's good PR. It's good for your community and the friends love that and a lot of times they will step in to provide.
37:34
I'd support if necessary. I've also seen people who put literally they put a jar out because there are some people who come and literally say aye this is late and I want to pay my fine and when they're told well, we don't have finds any more people will say can I make a donation and so libraries have taken donations of fines. But again as Beth said, it's most often. It's not a reduction in Revenue.
38:00
It's neutral.
38:03
Okay.
38:06
Our community doesn't fit the profile of having disadvantaged neighborhoods and we don't spend money to collect fines other than staff time, which is minimal. No collection agencies male costs Etc and serving the community over the last few years. There is no appetite for fine free. Is there a scenario where going fine free is just not right for your community will sure if your community says they want to pay fines and you've done your research and you've done surveys I suppose. Yes, but it can also be a man.
38:36
Of educating the community. But again, if you're saying you have a neighborhood where I mean you you exist for your community and you reach out to your community if your community says we don't want to go find free and your library is fine and your scenario then maybe it's not a policy you want to implement that's you want to add to that. Yeah. I yeah, I agree. I mean, it's absolutely Community by Community.
39:00
I would say there may be pockets of people that you're not hearing from Again, there is the shame associated with it. And even though you may be in a in a higher economic area. Sometimes there can be Pockets or people who may be live outside your area, but work in it near your library and use your library and so they can be kind of hidden. So the point Beth just just consider that the access and Equity issue, but definitely it is a community decision.
39:38
So we have here we plan to go find free in January, but we plan to collect lost fees damaged material fees Etc. Our library is going fine fee also not charging for lost or damaged items. Not that I am aware of I think particularly with children's materials. Yes, and we encourage that especially with board books and things like that for children's materials you talk to any children's librarian. They want those books to be used and abused.
40:05
We all know how three-year-olds use books they chew on them. They dragged them down the you know, the board books get worn out and they get worn out because those kids are using them. So I know that there are libraries that have decided to not charge for lost and damaged board books. But in general what people are doing is they are continuing to chart charge for lost and damaged. Just not for the late fines.
40:32
Yeah, I'll just add to that that in Meg's white paper. There is a recommendation there that libraries don't charge for board don't charge lost and damaged fees for board and picture books because of exactly what Mike just said. Yeah. Okay. Do you think there are better return incentive opportunities or do you think incentives are a lost cause well based on my research?
41:00
libraries that have incentives and libraries that don't have similar basically return rates are not affected by whether or not you you find someone or you offer gift cards. They don't it doesn't affect Behavior people who returned late return like people return time on time to return on time. And so I think incentives are not necessary.
41:25
I know some people will offer incentives in the amnesty program, but in general the research seems to show that presence of a reward or Judgment does not affect borrowing Behavior.
41:39
The next question is have you come across a library where an overwhelming number of people didn't return items for a long time past due dates. No, we haven't we found no change in return rates. And in fact some like the great statistic from coming out of Chicago recently was that many libraries find that patrons actually return more materials. But yeah, we've seen no change in return rates, right?
42:09
So we have two questions about teaching responsibility. And whenever this comes up I keep going back to the fact that it doesn't work. It's not teaching responsibilities. When you charge finds people who are going to return the books on time turn them in on time. The people who don't aren't going to turn them into on time. Don't turn them in on time. It's not teaching responsibility.
42:33
And we also argue that there are a lot of people would say that the library Is not necessarily in the business of morality and teaching responsibilities. That's the role of parents or the church or schools. But that is maybe not necessarily the library's role best. You want to dress anything else with that? Yeah, definitely. So I think I hear about that. I'm work with these services. So I hear a lot about what we need to teach kids responsibility.
43:03
Well four year olds can't get to the library to return a book on their own that there so I don't understand. It just doesn't make sense that this is teaching them responsibility plus parents or any adult in who works two jobs who lives 30 miles from the nearest library. It's not a matter of responsibility. It's simply that they may not be able to get to the library on time through no fault of their own. Maybe they've really wanted to or they have transportation issues.
43:37
Use there are so many barriers that people have to coming to the library to return a book on time that it really is not a matter of responsibility. It's just a matter of reality if their lives. Yeah, good point. Do you know any libraries that did not have a positive experience with fine free any horror stories so far there is Beth. You always have to remind me which system it is, but there was a light and Jana de yeah, there's one Library cuenta de it.
44:07
And when you start digging into it that there wasn't a whole the buy-in wasn't there the relationship of the I think it had to do with the the the governing body might not have had the by in there were other issues going on in the library. But yes, there is one Library out there that you can if you Google it you will find it decided to go back to charging finds. That's one Library.
44:38
compared to the hundreds of libraries that we've found, you know over the past few years, so One library that I know. Yeah, let's see going back up a little how do you answer the question regarding patrons having to wait longer to get a book and that is always a concern when libraries go find free. But again, you can point to dozens of libraries and they have this publicly that they've gone fine free and they've had no longer wait times the weight.
45:17
Have not changed when they've gone fine free. This has been proven over and over so you can just point to some statistics on that. Right? I think it was high plains that I highlighted earlier on no increase in they call it Patron disappoints and also the library in Michigan that compared to the tribal Library. They had similar statistics to their counterparts that did charge finds.
45:41
So and the question right above is if your library is required To generate Revenue by a County government. What other ways with the library do this?
45:56
So Meg mentioned before the friends group to fill in any perceived loss of Revenue again, if you can prove to them through your statistics and through showing some of these National statistics that there actually is no loss of Revenue like it appears to be a loss of Revenue, but it really isn't because it's costing the library and other ways.
46:24
Really is a cost neutral effort.
46:28
But that can be a hard sell. So make sure you have anything to add. No, I think you know to my mind it's your friends donations, but I'm with you Beth. I think that you got to drill down and make sure how much money you're spending to make that money. Remember San Diego, right? Yeah, it's been a million dollars to collect 700,000 now, that's a huge number but Australia that KC Carr Denia the same thing no your statistics before.
46:58
You answer the question from that governing body. So another question have libraries change their overdue timing when going free that's a really interesting question. So some some libraries at the same time or near about when they've gone fine free. They've gone to the automatic renewals. So it doesn't it's not exactly your question. But that is it's just an interesting method of doing those together.
47:29
And I have seen that when you look at the announcements, sometimes people will adjust it a little bit. I think it's just up to you and what works best for you talking to your circulation department. Some people in the process of going fine free had looked at their times and decided that two weeks wasn't enough so they bumped it up to 3, but it's Library by Library community by community and director by director was how they decide to go about implementing the policy. What is the timetable?
47:58
When you start to see results, hmm, that's a great question to I'd say part of it depends on how how it's promoted to your community. If you let people know, you know, if you really make an all-out effort to let your community know. Hey, we've gone fine free then you'll see borrowers start coming back. You'll see new patrons. And so I don't know Meg. I'm not yet.
48:29
That was so striking three weeks later. You know, I think again, I think you're right beside it has to do with promotion the more you promote it the more you're going to see change and sometimes you know, I think some libraries have done it quietly. And so it's been a quiet change. They notifying patrons one by one as they come into the library. So if you want it to start happening quickly, you just got to start trumpeting it on Twitter and on Facebook and talk to reporters and see what happens.
48:59
Can happen pretty quickly.
49:02
We've had some great examples of Mayors. Yeah coming on the news and saying hey the library is just done away with finds. This is great. Come back to the library things like that.
49:16
So which reminds me of you have another video to show you we'll take another question to don't you still have the expensive overdue notices and yes a few if you snail mail overdue notices you do that is a an expense that Don't go away. But again if your library is pairing going fine free with an automatic renewal system than that is one expense that goes down as well. Right that maybe we can do one more question and then go to that video. I was wondering if this one is pretty good one how many years has Fine free been a thing for libraries to do when I was doing that literature review.
49:55
I found going back to the 70s the 60s the 40's the Yes, this is a particularly, you know, you think back to when libraries were first founded and there was a lot more teaching responsibility. I think that's when this fine thing came about and through the decades. It came up over and over and over again, you know that and I think largely with children's Librarians to kind of poking the profession saying why are we doing this? So it's been a thing libraries have done for a long time. And again when we were soliciting comments for that.
50:31
Trying to when people were writing in saying we want to be on the map. I saw many people say hey, we've been we've always been fine free. We've always been fine free. So these were some more smaller libraries that have been in their communities for a hundred years. Okay, so we're going to show one more video and then we'll come back and just wrap it up.
50:58
We are here today to celebrate our new fine free policy new in 2019. No more late fines on overdue books at st. Paul public library. And we think this will make libraries even more accessible to everyone in our community policy just basically means that this Library belongs to all of us and we've learned that Library fines don't make people bring back books and make people stay away from the library. That's untenable for us. We want people to be here we welcome.
51:25
The own this Library lawn people to check out books, and we look forward to seeing people just come back into the space.
51:35
The city that works for everyone means the library has to work for everyone and finds going away opens the door for a whole lot of people wear that hasn't been the case.
51:49
You haven't been to a library in a while, or if you have never thought of yourself as a library user. We want you here. We invite you to come in. We want to welcome you and welcome you back.
52:06
Okay, what a great wrap up this great discussion. And I know we had another question in here about how can you promote this new policy to a community that is a great example from st. Paul and we just have we're not going to go through these but we have several pages of references here.
52:29
Again, these slides are available on your handouts if you want to look through these and we know there are some questions that we Get to but if you see here is our contact information. You can always email us.